Your problem statement does not match up with the proposed solution in my opinion. How will a closed thread where we can talk about anything (but still with some rules) push us forward on the goal of a more diverse community?
But I am also quite sure that we are quite unclear about what the real problems are and what we really want to talk about.
This thread can be a place where real problems and solutions are discussed, I am not sure why that conversation would warrant some special place to talk.
To echo what Matt suggested above, the best thing we can do (in my opinion) is focus on actions. If you want to help and contribute, feel free to reach out.
@chakravala 's post has been flagged and is now ignored content. I really understand why this is the case if I switch my viewpoint to the code of conduct which is the general rule here (for all discussions here in discourse).
But if you canât see that this is a problem on itself in a discussion about diversity and inclusiveness I am just unable to explain this.
I think the worst thing we can do is focus on actions, when the problem to solve isnât yet clear and we (the people involved) do not share the same or just a similar understanding of the problem. Even if we believe to have the same goal.
You got me wrong here. Not talk about everything, but allowing every opinion about diversity and how to achieve it. A private (non-public viewable) discussion to avoid exposing hostile opinions to the world to protect Juliaâs reputation.
To make room for more perspectives in a given environment, a community has to make less room for one specific class of perspectives: those that openly reject the goal of including more perspectives. The flagged statements were actively hostile to steps to improve diversity and inclusion, at least as I understand them.
I think there is and should be room to talk with those who share different valuesâI, for one, actively enjoy hearing from many different worldviewsâbut the goal there should probably be to share and learn something about one another (e.g. our feelings and values around a topic), rather than change anyoneâs mind. I donât think an internet forum is a particularly good place to do this. In this thread, I think the stated goal by the OP is quite different; it started with a concrete step that could be made to help one population (women) hopefully feel more welcome in the community.
I think the point is that the problem is clear, at least from the perspective of the stated community values of diversity and inclusion. This community is not diverse along a number of axes. Ergo: one laudable goal would be to find constructive ways to actively change that.
That is a classic mistake: what you write (and your intentions) is not what people read. And a statement âbeing hostileâ is not decided by you (the author), but people reading what you wrote. While I believe in your good intentions, you (and in general: we all, including me) need to adjust what (and how) we write, bearing in mind that other people will read it. You donât intend it, but (unfortunately it turns that) your response was read as hostile.
more to the topic: I wholeheartedly support what @Per suggested: role-models (and their cool-factor) are the best way to attract more diversity to any community and we should actively seek such models to promote it.
Unfortunately being a male I often find myself in helpless positing when it comes to promoting the diversity.
I would be very interested to see possible answers for these questions! I hope we can make a difference!
Agree with @haberdashPI statement about needing to limit one type of perspective to make sure all the others are heard, this is pretty much the Paradox of Tolerance and has been discussed at length by other people, I donât think we should waste time rehashing their arguments.
@oheil, again as @haberdashPI the problem is rather clear, low participation of gender minorities in the community, programming in general has this problem and it has been widely studied, in general biases, lack of opportunities and harassment are to blame, we shouldnât suppose a priori that the Julia community is free of those. In any case both the survey and our other ideas in this thread will put that hypothesis to test.
@PetrKryslUCSD today I spoke to the Julia Diversity and Inclusion committee and weâre thinking about the best way to spread the survey or at least its questions. Thanks for the support and feedback!
These topics always end the same way (look at previous ones for examples). The first step the community needs to take is to have this topic, or its next version, or the one that comes after thatâŚad infinitum⌠end differently.
I believe @joaoui1 is correct when referencing the Paradox of Tolerance. The thing that happens repeatedly in these threads is a Gish gallop of posts denying there is a problem, asking for proof, bringing up a different problem, ad infinitum in what practically becomes a denial of service attack.
I think as a community we need to shut that down faster and make sure that a purposeful discussion can continue.
This is a valid concern. But still IMO the conclusion that we have to shut down fast whatever doesnât fit is very wrong. I agree that at some point some people may have to be excluded to make a discussion fruitful. But here this has already been started before any meaningful discussion has begun. It is all set, the camps are separated into good and evil.
I donât want to be the one who does the denial of service attack to this discussion, I made my point clear enough, it is rejected, i am fine with that. So from now on I will focus on other facets of this topic.
I agree with @joaoui1, itâs probably not wrong to assume that the Julia community isnât significant better in general.
Assuming that the Julia community is better than the average wouldnât be of much help for the cause (which is increase diversity).
Nobody used the word guilt until now. The scientific assumption to be made is the null hypothesis, and it would be that Julia community is close to the middle of the bell curve in such characteristic (i.e., which reasons that cause the lack of diversity in Julia community, we should not start assuming those are specially different from the reasons this happens in other language communities), and the middle of the bell curve is very far from the ideal described in the official diversity statement. This hypothesis should be corroborated or reject based on evidence.
This thread has been dosâed by roughly the same parties as before and turned into the same unconstructive bickering. Several particularly bad posts have already been hidden and I have locked it for now. It may be possible to clean it up by deleting some posts and open it up with some of the less constructive parties banned from discussion, but for now itâs better to lock rather than continue to provide a platform for toxicity.
