Non-english discussion section?

Diversity is important and different languages are often a part of different cultures. However, the thing that makes discourse unique is that we have moderators and input from core developers. Unless we can find that kind of support I’m not sure it matters how many speak a given language.

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Ideally with automatic translation, Hungarians could keep communicating in Hungarian if they wished to do so, but the majority would not be excluded and would be able to participate in English. There would be double-translation for the supported languages. What is the point of diversity without inclusion?

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imho: If we follow the diversity statements recommendations ( by @nassarhuda [1] )
AND We are creating educational material in non-english language ; THEN the next logical step → we need to support this new community members.
My question is: Where ?

Adding automatic google translate button everywhere ( juliaLang website / educational material / support forum ) is far from the ideal.

[1]

The word diversity in that context means “avoiding the irrational discriminations present in the culture.”
Having different sections for each language would not promote inclusion but rather promote marginalization.
In my opinion, two distinct things can happen:
1)all posts are translated into all languages, and at this point there would be more translators than programmers on this site;
2) the non-English sections would be less frequented, people writing in their own language would receive fewer answers (of lower quality because fewer people check if the answers are correct) and people who also speak English would write their questions in English for this reason, making the non-English sections even less frequented.
If point 2 were to happen, it would create a marginalized situation exactly as it happens in cities where foreigners stay in the suburbs. This is not a good thing.

Having said that, learning English related to programming is not a difficult thing, I’m learning it by watching subtitled lessons on youtube.
This post was generated with an automatic translator, I didn’t write a single word in English.

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3 posts were split to a new topic: Off topic personal commentary

I’m quite impressed with the natural flow of the translation. Can I ask what translator you are using?

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Me too! I think I will stop writing in English and use that :joy:

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I am using deepl from Italian to English.

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Just tried it on a relatively difficult Russian text - the translation quality is impressive indeed!

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Just for curiosity, these are the question and answer that originally motivated this post, translated by DeepL:

Question:

Hi, I’m new to Julia too. In some sites it says that it is a compiled language, but as it does not create an executable, I think it is more like an interpreted language (because it needs to have the Julia compiler installed to work). In any case, Python is an interpreted language but you can create executables. At one time I used something like pi2exe, but it lagged behind and then I used cx_freeze and it works fine. I go to Julia out of curiosity, but everything I program now is aimed at windows and I also need the .exe.

Answer:

Welcome to the community. It is true that Julia is compiled but “just in time” or in other words, it is compiled just before running the code, without producing an executable. Right now I think the most popular way to create an executable is through PackageCompiler.jl 1 but I would say that it is not an ideal solution for now (if most of your programs are to share with people who don’t know how to program). Whether Julia is a good solution for you or not depends entirely on what kind of problems you need to solve.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

To be honest, I could not have done better.

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To be honest, I could not have done better.

I feel the same. The opinion of a native English speaker could be different.

Anyway, I wonder if I am the only one to feel a bit scared about these tools…
Maybe I should give up on my bad (and painfully acquired) English and rely on machines.

What’s next (programming, science…) ? Those damn Julia masters are so good and productive that they may accelerate the end of humanity :wink:

Or just think that soon enough, without that, we all will have to learn Chinese. And I am way beyond the best age to learn a new language.

But honestly, those tools getting that good will make language-specific sites a thing of the past, one could well just pick the interface one wants, except perhaps for literature and poetry forums… yet.

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:slight_smile: for me: “diversity”: { ++empathy , +++non-violent communications , respect … }

Probably you know, that DeepL.com
“Currently supported languages are English, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Japanese, and Chinese.”
And If I translate “JuliaLang” website to Hungarian ( with Google Translate )
then the “General” word ( in a " Julia in a Nutshell" section) translated as a ~“war-lord” … it is funny and strange …

in my mind …

  • There will be only 1 non-english “general” topic for every "low volume " languages
  • unlocking: 1 or 2 volunteer moderators for a given language. ( as mentioned others )
  • Etiquette: if somebody answering the question
    • then please also add a short english summary about the problem + proposed solutions.
    • so the “non-english” section in the reality → will be a dual language section.
  • for a high volume languages … probably need a different solutions

People above 40 and with a not so good english, probably choosing new programming languages with a strong non-english support. → And now this is Python.

My question … How we can transform this problem as a non-zero sum game ?

  • “Dual-language discussion” ?

And sorry for my draft english.

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It seems to me that anything that is done to formalize this is only going to erect more barriers than exist currently. As far as I can tell, right now, there are no rules and no discouragement. You are free to use whatever language you want (as long as it isn’t profane!) anywhere on the forum.

The reason that we don’t see more non-English communication is likely due to network effects more than anything else. Perhaps people shy away from using non-English simply because English is the dominate language on the forum. If that is the case, perhaps the only thing that needs to be done to increase outreach and communication is to tell people that they are free to post in whatever language they want. Naturally, a question posted in Hungarian might elicit fewer responses because (a) fewer Julia users speak the language and (b) those that are willing to answer questions might not always feel like paying the costs of translation. A person choosing to post in Hungarian likely knew this already and chose to post anyway.

[These comments are only directed at Discourse. There could be other areas in the Julia community (such as the main website and docs) where having the option for different languages would be important.]

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This is followed by: “The Python community encourages the creation of user groups in all locales, and many of them are listed at http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups Many of these user groups also have mailing lists in the locally preferred language.”

So their non-zero sum solution is to encourage others to start their own user groups and mailing lists. I think that’s a reasonable approach, as those best able to start and run a forum in another language are the ones who speak it.

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I’d note that there’s already a precedent for this in https://discourse.juliacn.com/ and https://julialang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/238139-chinese. Granted neither forum gets a lot of traffic, but they do provide a known location for those who are really not comfortable asking questions or starting discussions in English to go. (Edit: and also for the occasional off-topic banter :slight_smile:)

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I can understand how talking with others in your preferred language might be fun. However, posting on this forum on technical topics in a language not accessible to some of the experts will be definitely suboptimal for the OP.

OK,
I am revoking all my ideas in this topic about

  • ~ ( hungarian | dual HUN-ENG) topics in discourse

the diversity issues are hard ; and we need to check the “second order effects”.

That’s very confusing to me, @anon74562486. We do indeed want all folks to feel welcome here, and indeed discussions about diversity can get heated especially when crossing cultural and language boundaries. You aren’t anywhere close to “the line” — and even if you were, the response wouldn’t be to immediately delete your posts and ban you.

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Thanks everyone for the discussion! There are some technical solutions on the Discourse software side of things for builtin automatic translations, but unfortunately our current hosting setup (multi-tenanted on discourse.com) doesn’t allow for arbitrary plugins, and that’s not a supported one.

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