# Towards improving community diversity

**URL:** <https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717>\
**Category:** Diversity & Inclusion\
**Created:** [September 16, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717 "2020-09-16T14:06:07Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 15\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![logankilpatrick](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/logankilpatrick/32/38123_2.png) [@logankilpatrick](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/logankilpatrick)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/61 "2020-09-18T16:05:36Z")

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> [@oheil](#):
>
> But I also see, as others do, that not so much real actions are proposed. In my opinion we are quite clear on what we would like to achieve, that is, we would be happy if the community diversity would increase steadily. But I am also quite sure that we are quite unclear about what the real problems are and what we really want to talk about. And that’s the reason, IMO, that there is not so much progress.

Your problem statement does not match up with the proposed solution in my opinion. How will a closed thread where we can talk about anything (but still with some rules) push us forward on the goal of a more diverse community?

> But I am also quite sure that we are quite unclear about what the real problems are and what we really want to talk about.

This thread can be a place where real problems and solutions are discussed, I am not sure why that conversation would warrant some special place to talk.

To echo what Matt suggested above, the best thing we can do (in my opinion) is focus on actions. If you want to help and contribute, feel free to reach out.

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/62 "2020-09-18T18:02:45Z")

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@chakravala 's post has been flagged and is now _ignored_ content. I really understand why this is the case if I switch my viewpoint to the code of conduct which is the general rule here (for all discussions here in discourse).

But if you can’t see that this is a problem on itself in a discussion about diversity and inclusiveness I am just unable to explain this. 🤷‍♂️

I think the worst thing we can do is focus on actions, when the problem to solve isn’t yet clear and we (the people involved) do not share the same or just a similar understanding of the problem. Even if we **believe** to have the same goal.

> [@logankilpatrick](#):
>
> How will a closed thread where we can talk about anything (but still with some rules) push us forward on the goal of a more diverse community

You got me wrong here. Not talk about everything, but allowing every opinion about diversity and how to achieve it. A private (non-public viewable) discussion to avoid exposing hostile opinions to the world to protect Julia’s reputation.

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**Author:** ![haberdashPI](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/haberdashpi/32/26337_2.png) [@haberdashPI](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/haberdashPI)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/63 "2020-09-18T20:39:55Z")

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> [@oheil](#):
>
> But if you can’t see that this is a problem on itself in a discussion about diversity and inclusiveness I am just unable to explain this. 🤷‍♂️

To make room for more perspectives in a given environment, a community has to make _less_ room for one specific class of perspectives: those that openly reject the goal of including more perspectives. The flagged statements were actively hostile to steps to improve diversity and inclusion, at least as I understand them.

I think there is and should be room to talk with those who share different values—I, for one, actively enjoy hearing from many different worldviews—but the goal there should probably be to share and learn something about one another (e.g. our feelings and values around a topic), rather than change anyone’s mind. I don’t think an internet forum is a particularly good place to do this. In this thread, I think the stated goal by the OP is quite different; it started with a concrete step that could be made to help one population (women) hopefully feel more welcome in the community.

> [@oheil](#):
>
> I think the worst thing we can do is focus on actions, when the problem to solve isn’t yet clear and we (the people involved) do not share the same or just a similar understanding of the problem.

I think the point is that the problem is clear, at least from the perspective of the stated community values of diversity and inclusion. This community is not diverse along a number of axes. Ergo: one laudable goal would be to find constructive ways to actively change that.

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**Author:** ![abulak](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/abulak/32/28314_2.png) [@abulak](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/abulak)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/68 "2020-09-18T21:38:47Z")

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> [@On another topic](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/46882/1):
>
> That’s incorrect, I have not been hostile.

That is a classic mistake: what you write (and your intentions) is not what people read. And a statement “being hostile” is not decided by you (the author), but people reading what you wrote. While I believe in your good intentions, you (and in general: we all, including me) need to adjust what (and how) we write, bearing in mind that other people will read it. You don’t intend it, but (unfortunately it turns that) your response was read as hostile.

* * *

more to the topic: I wholeheartedly support what @Per suggested: role-models (and their cool-factor) are the best way to attract more diversity to any community and we should actively seek such models to promote it.

Unfortunately being a male I often find myself in helpless positing when it comes to promoting the diversity.

> [@joaoui1](#):
>
> - (for people in other communities) Are there some positive changes that seemed to have made a difference?
> - (or people in other communities) Are there some steps the community took but that did not seem to be effective?

I would be very interested to see possible answers for these questions! I hope we can make a difference!

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/69 "2020-09-18T21:41:23Z")

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Agree with @haberdashPI statement about needing to limit one type of perspective to make sure all the others are heard, this is pretty much the Paradox of Tolerance and has been discussed at length by other people, I don’t think we should waste time rehashing their arguments.

@oheil, again as @haberdashPI the problem is rather clear, low participation of gender minorities in the community, programming in general has this problem and it has been widely studied, in general biases, lack of opportunities and harassment are to blame, we shouldn’t suppose a priori that the Julia community is free of those. In any case both the survey and our other ideas in this thread will put that hypothesis to test.

@PetrKryslUCSD today I spoke to the Julia Diversity and Inclusion committee and we’re thinking about the best way to spread the survey or at least its questions. Thanks for the support and feedback!

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**Author:** ![tbeason](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/tbeason/32/15898_2.png) [@tbeason](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/tbeason)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/70 "2020-09-18T21:44:09Z")

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These topics always end the same way (look at previous ones for examples). The first step the community needs to take is to have this topic, or its next version, or the one that comes after that…ad infinitum… end differently.

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/71 "2020-09-18T21:45:14Z")

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~~I agree, because it is done wrong. It is done in an exclusive way from the beginning.~~  
I retract that, it’s too harsh.

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**Author:** ![klaff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/klaff/32/7637_2.png) [@klaff](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/klaff)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/72 "2020-09-18T22:04:54Z")

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I believe @joaoui1 is correct when referencing the Paradox of Tolerance. The thing that happens repeatedly in these threads is a Gish gallop of posts denying there is a problem, asking for proof, bringing up a different problem, ad infinitum in what practically becomes a denial of service attack.

I think as a community we need to shut that down faster and make sure that a purposeful discussion can continue.

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/73 "2020-09-18T22:31:44Z")

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> [@klaff](#):
>
> The thing that happens repeatedly in these threads is a Gish gallop of posts denying there is a problem, asking for proof, bringing up a different problem, ad infinitum in what practically becomes a denial of service attack.

This is a valid concern. But still IMO the conclusion that we have to shut down fast whatever doesn’t fit is very wrong. I agree that at some point some people may have to be excluded to make a discussion fruitful. But here this has already been started before any meaningful discussion has begun. It is all set, the camps are separated into good and evil.

I don’t want to be the one who does the denial of service attack to this discussion, I made my point clear enough, it is rejected, i am fine with that. So from now on I will focus on other facets of this topic.

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**Author:** ![chakravala](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/chakravala/32/6832_2.png) [@chakravala](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/chakravala)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/74 "2020-09-18T22:44:45Z")

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This post was temporarily hidden by the community for possibly being off-topic, unfocused, inappropriate, or spammy.

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/75 "2020-09-18T22:55:57Z")

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> [@chakravala](#):
>
> > [@joaoui1](#):
> >
> > it has been widely studied, in general biases, lack of opportunities and harassment are to blame, we shouldn’t suppose a priori that the Julia community is free of those
> 
> it is rather distasteful to accuse an entire programming language community of making women uncomfortable without any demonstrable evidence

A good general read is this:  
[https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/ncwit\_thefacts\_rev2010.pdf](https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/ncwit_thefacts_rev2010.pdf)  
Especially astonishing to me is the fact that it (ratio of women in IT) has become steadily worse since the 90s.

I agree with @joaoui1, it’s probably not wrong to assume that the Julia community isn’t significant better in general.  
Assuming that the Julia community is better than the average wouldn’t be of much help for the cause (which is increase diversity).

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**Author:** ![chakravala](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/chakravala/32/6832_2.png) [@chakravala](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/chakravala)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/76 "2020-09-18T22:59:18Z")

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This post was temporarily hidden by the community for possibly being off-topic, unfocused, inappropriate, or spammy.

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**Author:** ![Henrique\_Becker](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/henrique_becker/32/15443_2.png) [@Henrique\_Becker](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Henrique_Becker)\
**Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/77 "2020-09-18T23:06:34Z")

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> [@chakravala](#):
>
> assuming guilt without evidence is delusional

Nobody used the word _guilt_ until now. The scientific assumption to be made is the null hypothesis, and it would be that Julia community is close to the middle of the bell curve in such characteristic (i.e., which reasons that cause the lack of diversity in Julia community, we should **not** start assuming those are specially different from the reasons this happens in other language communities), and the middle of the bell curve is very far from the ideal described in the official diversity statement. This hypothesis should be corroborated or reject based on evidence.

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**Author:** ![StefanKarpinski](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/stefankarpinski/32/24_2.png) [@StefanKarpinski](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/StefanKarpinski)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/78 "2020-09-19T05:07:58Z")

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Closed on September 19, 2020, 5:07am UTC



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**Author:** ![StefanKarpinski](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/stefankarpinski/32/24_2.png) [@StefanKarpinski](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/StefanKarpinski)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 5:10am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/79 "2020-09-19T05:10:23Z")

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This thread has been dos’ed by roughly the same parties as before and turned into the same unconstructive bickering. Several particularly bad posts have already been hidden and I have locked it for now. It may be possible to clean it up by deleting some posts and open it up with some of the less constructive parties banned from discussion, but for now it’s better to lock rather than continue to provide a platform for toxicity.

[Previous page](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717.md?page=3)