# Towards improving community diversity

**URL:** <https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717>\
**Category:** Diversity & Inclusion\
**Created:** [September 16, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717 "2020-09-16T14:06:07Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/21 "2020-09-16T19:15:10Z")

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On second thoughts, my post above displays insensitivity and is exclusionary. I’m sorry and  
I take it back.

I think the proper way of getting feedback is through an anonymous  
survey. Asking for a posting here (under more or less identifiable handles) would  
exclude people who are not comfortable providing these disclosures.

Perhaps @joaoui1 would like to manage this survey and post the results here?

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/22 "2020-09-16T20:24:41Z")

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There once was a similar topic:  
[https://discourse.julialang.org/t/creating-a-world-of-programming-language-to-be-inclusive-as-possible](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/creating-a-world-of-programming-language-to-be-inclusive-as-possible)  
it wasn’t started by me but splitted like this one.

After it was closed I asked myself what I did wrong and why it was closed. I am still not sure about the close.

This topic is already a problem again it seems to me:

> [@mbauman](#):
>
> I’m not terribly comfortable explicitly asking underrepresented groups…

The problem I see here is that we want to talk about being inclusive or lack of diverstity but some people (not necessary @mbauman the quote is just an example) are extremely exclusive on the way this topic should be talked about and what opinions are valid in such a discussion and what is not.

In my opinion, if we talk about increasing the inclusiveness in this community we have to deal with all opinions on this matter, even if someone expresses something against inclusiveness or against more women or against some kinds of diversity, whatever.

If a discussion like this is not really open to all sides those who like to contribute to this matter would have to be extremely cautious on how they speak (like @PetrKryslUCSD above) . And this can not result in a good discussion if everybody has to avoid the holy inquisition.

We can’t improve on this matter if talking about is already censored.

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**Author:** ![ChrisRackauckas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/chrisrackauckas/32/77_2.png) [@ChrisRackauckas](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/ChrisRackauckas)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/23 "2020-09-16T20:40:59Z")

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Great post @mohamed82008. A few things to mention.

> [@mohamed82008](#):
>
> - Find fields, schools, universities and countries with more minority students and academics than average and promote Julia there. When talking about different countries, the language and culture barriers become an issue here as well.

Or fields. I’ve noted before that some scientific fields, like biology, pharmaceutical sciences, and social sciences, tend to be a lot more diverse than the core fields that a lot of the Julia founders and package developers come from (mathematics, computer science, and physics). One effective way to increase diversity in our community may be to more actively recruit in these fields.

> [@mohamed82008](#):
>
> Give special opportunities to minorities in the community or those who want to join the community. Although that comes at a cost for the majority. Since opportunties are generally scarce, giving advantage to one group can disadvantage other groups. Finding the balance here is “not easy”, to say the least.

I think things like the NumFOCUS small development grants, and also making sure there’s continued funded student programs, helps this. Open source naturally selects for those who have the time and privilege to invest in something that either won’t have professional payoff or if it does, it may take years before there’s any clear advantage. It’s no surprise then that most people running open source communities come from places of privilege, since you need some kind of safe background in order for getting involved in open source to be sensible. Funded student programs is one way to break down those barriers, and it’s by breaking such barriers that we can begin to make major inroads into diversity of our community.

> [@mohamed82008](#):
>
> 1. Have more role models. This is really not something that we can just make happen. Whether someone reaches a “role model status” or not depends on a lot of factors, e.g. career choices, personality traits, level of Julia knowledge and experience, culture, etc. I think we already have a number of female “role models” in the Julia community so this may be one less thing that needs to be worked on 🙂

Indeed, this is great to have, but we do need to ensure that the burden of increasing diversity does not fall onto the underrepresented individuals of our community themselves. Too much diversity work in the hands of such individuals could detract from other professional activities and accidentally have the wrong effect. In that sense, we should not only attempt to foster more underrepresented models but simultaneously try to find ways to support them in that the work is shared by others as well. This means its important to have as many individuals as possible as part of such diversity initiatives! Exactly how to do this balance is hard, but it’s definitely the right question to ask.

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**Author:** ![kevbonham](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/kevbonham/32/216165_2.png) [@kevbonham](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/kevbonham)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/24 "2020-09-16T21:31:02Z")

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> [@ChrisRackauckas](#):
>
> Or fields. I’ve noted before that some scientific fields, like biology, pharmaceutical sciences, and social sciences, tend to be a lot more diverse than the core fields that a lot of the Julia founders and package developers come from

There’s a whole literature on this ([shameless self-plug](https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005134), though I’ll note that men self-cite more than women). Unfortunately, it’s not super clear _why_ this is the case.

> [@ChrisRackauckas](#):
>
> One effective way to increase diversity in our community may be to more actively recruit in these fields.

Exactly what I’ve been thinking about. Of course, this is just one approach, but hopefully a fruitful one. Getting back to the OP, I think this is one of the reasons that the group of R users is so diverse, because it’s so widely used in biology and ecology.

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**Author:** ![mohamed82008](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/mohamed82008/32/18171_2.png) [@mohamed82008](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/mohamed82008)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/25 "2020-09-16T21:33:54Z")

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> [@ChrisRackauckas](#):
>
> Indeed, this is great to have, but we do need to ensure that the burden of increasing diversity does not fall onto the underrepresented individuals of our community themselves. Too much diversity work in the hands of such individuals could detract from other professional activities and accidentally have the wrong effect.

I don’t like the concept of “diversity work”. Promoting diversity is just an education and marketing task primarily. What I mean by being a role model in this context is just doing whatever you are good at and having your work highlighted by the community and maybe even your character. It’s not much more than that. Anything beyond that is purely optional and so people can simply bow out when feeling overwhelmed, nothing shameful about that.

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/26 "2020-09-16T23:53:59Z")

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Hi, I can create a google forms for the survey, but I’m extremely new to the Julia community, any idea where I should post it to get good answers?  
Also maybe a more official effort would be better, made by people with more ability to change things and that could use Julia’s official channels to spread/promote the survey

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/27 "2020-09-16T23:54:59Z")

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Wow that discussion was painful, was gonna read through it, but after about 20 replies I couldn’t go on. Thankfully this discussion seems to be going towards a better direction

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/28 "2020-09-17T00:20:06Z")

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Talked to a friend and we ended up with the following 7 questions (better keep it short) partially inspired by @PetrKryslUCSD

1. What is it that you think would help women programmers most?
2. What turns you off from the Julia community?
3. (for people in other communities) Are there some positive changes that seemed to have made a difference?
4. (or people in other communities) Are there some steps the community took but that did not seem to be effective?
5. Do you support the creation of safe spaces/women only spaced in Julia’s official communication channels? (i.e one channel in slack, one category in discourse…)
6. Are you interested in being mentored by more experienced members/developers from the Julia community
7. Are you interested in founding or being part of a R-ladies/Pyladies like group?

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**Author:** ![anon92994695](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@anon92994695](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/anon92994695)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/29 "2020-09-17T00:28:37Z")

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Should we extend the survey to other groups as well or just women for now?

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/30 "2020-09-17T00:37:09Z")

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We could ask what minority the person is part of

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![anon92994695](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@anon92994695](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/anon92994695)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/31 "2020-09-17T00:46:41Z")

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Maybe its better to focus on one group at a time otherwise the survey could get too long/distracted from the goal.

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/32 "2020-09-17T01:01:20Z")

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I would suggest to create a Google survey ([Is creating an anonymous survey on GoogleForm's free app still possible today? - Google Docs Editors Community](https://support.google.com/docs/thread/6842711?hl=en)), and post the link here. Perhaps in a separate thread with a clear subject label to draw attention.

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**Author:** ![joaoui1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joaoui1/32/17950_2.png) [@joaoui1](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joaoui1)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/33 "2020-09-17T02:38:55Z")

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What do you think?

> **[Towards improving community diversity](https://forms.gle/mto1ujy1SA5VFpCs8)**

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![apo383](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/apo383/32/11272_2.png) [@apo383](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/apo383)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/34 "2020-09-17T02:55:46Z")

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> [@joaoui1](#):
>
> What turns you off from the Julia community?

Might help to word this more neutrally, since some people might not be turned off from the community.

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 3:12am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/35 "2020-09-17T03:12:29Z")

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![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/original/3X/6/d/6db8643780c79f013b46f37e81d0bf17ed46d350.png)

Perhaps “Is there anything that would turn you off from the Julia community?”

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/36 "2020-09-17T03:15:05Z")

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![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/original/3X/4/3/43bd3fa96220195329be103989945bbf972f27b7.png)  
I believe that these questions my apply not only to people in other communities, but in this one as well. There have been some steps taken to make discourse more welcoming etc. So: let’s find out what worked and what didn’t.

But you are right: the question could also be directing respondents to their experience in other communities as well.

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**Author:** ![Henrique\_Becker](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/henrique_becker/32/15443_2.png) [@Henrique\_Becker](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Henrique_Becker)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/37 "2020-09-17T04:03:48Z")

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Oh yes. That thread. I was beaten by Stefan by about 2 minutes. I wrote a long answer to a “biology” argument and when tried to post it, the thread was already locked.

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**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/38 "2020-09-17T08:57:26Z")

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It hasn’t mentioned here yet so I do it. The Julia User and Developer survey had some questions about diversity in our community. See blog and results here:

> **[2020 Julia User and Developer Survey](https://julialang.org/blog/2020/08/2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/)**
>
> This year, 2,565 Julia users and developers participated in the second annual Julia User and Developer Survey.

(I think you all know but for the completeness…)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![oheil](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/oheil/32/220745_2.png) [@oheil](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/oheil)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 8:59am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/39 "2020-09-17T08:59:34Z")

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Same 2019

> **[Julia User - Developer Survey 2019](https://julialang.org/blog/2019/08/2019-julia-survey/)**
>
> Julia User and Developer Survey 2019 | We conducted the first annual Julia User & Developer Survey in June, and the results were presented by Viral Shah at JuliaCon on July 23....

The numbers (of diversity) haven’t changed much (at all?).

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**Author:** ![cormullion](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/cormullion/32/49131_2.png) [@cormullion](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/cormullion)\
**Post date:** [September 17, 2020, 9:32am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/towards-improving-community-diversity/46717/40 "2020-09-17T09:32:49Z")

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As regards naming, I remember there were some preliminary moves towards forming a group of this kind a few years ago (2018). I remember making up some logos - still have them on disk here:

 ![Screenshot 2020-09-17 at 10.25.03](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/original/3X/1/8/18e7de0e79f8baafdceca742bb213e76fd41563d.png)

Not sure about some of them now… 🙂

Perhaps with Logan our Community Manager at the helm some more progress could be made this time round.

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