# RFC: 2020 Julia User and Developer Survey

**URL:** <https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442>\
**Category:** Community\
**Created:** [April 29, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442 "2020-04-29T19:07:02Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![dmolina](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dmolina/32/5246_2.png) [@dmolina](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/dmolina)\
**Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 11:12am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/41 "2020-05-24T11:12:54Z")

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This is my [revision in Spanish](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s0CnuA4bhffiHS1t2gQ0fR7c-aU4x5WTFxB9NcOhec8/edit?usp=sharing) of your draft.

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**Author:** ![Nosferican](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/nosferican/32/9275_2.png) [@Nosferican](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Nosferican)\
**Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 2:21pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/42 "2020-05-24T14:21:58Z")

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Done.

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**Author:** ![dmolina](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dmolina/32/5246_2.png) [@dmolina](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/dmolina)\
**Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/43 "2020-05-24T16:28:07Z")

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Thanks you, I have already applied my changes in your draft.

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**Author:** ![viralbshah](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/viralbshah/32/54_2.png) [@viralbshah](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/viralbshah)\
**Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/44 "2020-05-25T20:35:29Z")

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The survey will be coded up into a form, and then widely announced for taking. We are still in the preparation phase.

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**Author:** ![viralbshah](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/viralbshah/32/54_2.png) [@viralbshah](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/viralbshah)\
**Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/45 "2020-05-25T20:36:33Z")

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@Nosferican @dmolina Thank you both! Just verifying that this is the right version for us to use:

> **[Copy of Copy of 2020 Julia User &amp; Developer Survey (Reviewed)](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s0CnuA4bhffiHS1t2gQ0fR7c-aU4x5WTFxB9NcOhec8/edit?usp=sharing)**
>
> Estimado participante,Ha sido invitado a participar de la segunda encuesta anual de usuarios y desarrolladores de Julia. Los resultados serán presentados durante JuliaCon 2020 (este verano) y estará disponible en línea para el público general....

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**Author:** ![Nosferican](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/nosferican/32/9275_2.png) [@Nosferican](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Nosferican)\
**Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/46 "2020-05-25T20:47:51Z")

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Should be this one

> **[Copy of 2020 Julia User &amp; Developer Survey](https://docs.google.com/document/d/11mh0oMox6BfqgkKEoObYotNGjr2ILr441L176DuVkWE/edit)**
>
> Estimado participante,Ha sido invitado a participar de la segunda encuesta anual de usuarios y desarrolladores de Julia. Los resultados serán presentados durante JuliaCon 2020 (este verano) y estará disponible en línea para el público general....

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**Author:** ![viralbshah](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/viralbshah/32/54_2.png) [@viralbshah](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/viralbshah)\
**Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/47 "2020-06-08T14:52:07Z")

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Thanks everyone for all the help and discussion. We incorporated many suggestions, but also wanted to not change it too much in order to keep it comparable to last year.

English, Spanish, Japanese:  
[https://juliacomputing.com/survey](https://juliacomputing.com/survey)

Chinese (turns out jotform doesn’t work in China and hence we have a separate URL):

> **[Julia开发者问卷调查 - 腾讯问卷](https://wj.qq.com/s2/6493832/e4db/)**
>
> 腾讯问卷提供了从问卷设计、数据收集到统计分析的一站式专业调查研究能力，平台还有超百万的在线回答小组成员，可以提供高效、精准的问卷有偿投放服务，已经被广泛应用在调查研究、表单、投票、考试等工作和学习场景，满足政府、企业、学校、团队组织等各类用户数据收集和统计分析的使用需要。腾讯问卷对通用的基础功能是永久免费的，也可以根据自身使用需求选择有更多个性化高级功能和服务的付费高级版、尊享版、旗舰版。

-viral

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**Author:** ![Palli](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/palli/32/3380_2.png) [@Palli](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Palli)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 12:18pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/48 "2020-06-17T12:18:24Z")

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> [@sgjanssens](#):
>
> I would be much more inclined to adopt Julia as my language of choice and take the survey if the survey and the community would focus, _entirely and exclusively_, on technical merits and possible improvements.

I’m not too concerned with how many take the survey, but I wouldn’t want to alienate anyone from using Julia. I’m not going to ask you, if you identify as a member of any underrepresented group (LGBTQ or black etc.), but either way, especially if not, for people might be a concern. I can’t speak for underrepresented groups, but do they feel more included with such questions, or could care less? Do they feel offended somehow, if not asked (or even for gender)?

I know there’s are community websites for e.g. black programmers (if I recall they use the word black, and not all are from Africa, except in the sense we all are…): [African-American women in computer science - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_women_in_computer_science)

We could ask the minority (and majority) communities, what they think of the questions. We do have many combinations, can we just have “underrepresened” or not (even excluding gender, I believe asking for that, started LGBTQ issue)?

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**Author:** ![Tamas\_Papp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/tamas_papp/32/25949_2.png) [@Tamas\_Papp](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Tamas_Papp)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/49 "2020-06-17T12:26:01Z")

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> [@Palli](#):
>
> I can’t speak for underrepresented groups, but do they feel more included with such questions, or could care less? Do they feel offended somehow, if not asked (or even for gender)?

Again, in this particular instance I don’t think these questions are about offending (or appeasing) people — the information collected from them is genuinely useful if one is interested in measuring how inclusive the community is towards various groups.

Computer science, like many other technical/professional fields, has a huge historical debt from excluding certain groups of people. A few extra questions that allow to quantifying progress on this front are well worth it IMO.

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**Author:** ![Eben60](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/eben60/32/13475_2.png) [@Eben60](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Eben60)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/50 "2020-06-17T13:40:24Z")

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> [@Tamas\_Papp](#):
>
> Computer science … has a huge historical debt from excluding certain groups of people.

I know of the case of Alan Turing, which is way long ago, and also that in the USSR there was discrimination towards Jews (by ethnicity, not only by religion), Germans and some other ethnic groups, other among other things on admittance to the universities. However that is rather long ago, too.

But what else?

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/51 "2020-06-17T13:58:46Z")

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Half the population, for instance.

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**Author:** ![Eben60](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/eben60/32/13475_2.png) [@Eben60](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Eben60)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/52 "2020-06-17T14:17:45Z")

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Half the world population, half the USA population?

I’m not aware of excluding women from studying sciences in the USA and Europe in the last, say 30 years.

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/53 "2020-06-17T14:26:48Z")

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I am. My own daughter was advised (15 ya) to leave “up to the boys” when she expressed interest in working with computers.

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**Author:** ![xiaodai](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/xiaodai/32/15937_2.png) [@xiaodai](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/xiaodai)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/54 "2020-06-17T14:47:53Z")

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Eh… Kinda disgusting. I would tell my daughter that’s nonsense

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**Author:** ![Eben60](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/eben60/32/13475_2.png) [@Eben60](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Eben60)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/55 "2020-06-17T14:48:14Z")

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> [@PetrKryslUCSD](#):
>
> My own daughter was advised (15 ya) to leave “up to the boys”

Certainly not good. Still, I don’t think that amounts to “exclusion”.

> [@Eben60](#):
>
> I don’t want to engage into a lengthy ideological discussion, so I … do not intend to continue afterwards.

Sorry, it happened to be difficult for me to keep my word - but I’ll again try my best.

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**Author:** ![PetrKryslUCSD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/petrkryslucsd/32/215825_2.png) [@PetrKryslUCSD](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/PetrKryslUCSD)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/56 "2020-06-17T14:56:54Z")

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Actually, to cite fully: “Honey, better leave it up to the boys, they tend to be better at it.” That was the elementary school teacher. A woman. ☹

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**Author:** ![mohamed82008](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/mohamed82008/32/18171_2.png) [@mohamed82008](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/mohamed82008)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/57 "2020-06-17T15:11:19Z")

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Spreading a self-discrimination culture in the form of advice, that’s pretty toxic. Not to mention the advice itself is a classic example of the “correlation implies causation” logical fallacy.

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**Author:** ![tbeason](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/tbeason/32/15898_2.png) [@tbeason](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/tbeason)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/58 "2020-06-17T15:11:55Z")

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It is not inclusive, and that is the point. The extent to which you believe it amounts to exclusion is irrelevant.

Again, the survey simply asks basic demographic questions. It isn’t asking opinionated questions, nothing about policy proposals, etc. If you don’t want to provide the information, that’s always your choice. But to argue that it is wrong to include those questions is silly, particularly if your supporting argument is that “you aren’t aware of active discrimination”.

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**Author:** ![Tamas\_Papp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/tamas_papp/32/25949_2.png) [@Tamas\_Papp](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Tamas_Papp)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/59 "2020-06-17T17:02:37Z")

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> [@Eben60](#):
>
> Still, I don’t think that amounts to “exclusion”.

A lot of things don’t formally amount to exclusion, just make it more difficult for certain groups in society to participate. A lot of people in these groups then realize that the playing field is not level, so they don’t even try.

It is very difficult to quantify these things causally. One may just err on the side of asking a few extra questions in a survey.

Frankly, I am puzzled why people have such a beef about these questions. As @tbeason said, no one is obligated to answer, people can just skip them all. Simply asking these questions does not amount to taking a stance about discrimination; it’s just collecting information.

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**Author:** ![Rob\_van\_Weelderen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/rob_van_weelderen/32/7621_2.png) [@Rob\_van\_Weelderen](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Rob_van_Weelderen)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/rfc-2020-julia-user-and-developer-survey/38442/60 "2020-06-17T18:48:56Z")

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Well, to my knowledge in France it’s even forbidden by law to ask these questions about ethnicity.

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