# Controversy on who said what on debuggers **URL:** \ **Category:** General Usage\ **Created:** [September 28, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687 "2018-09-28T11:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2

**Author:** ![ChrisRackauckas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/chrisrackauckas/32/77_2.png) [@ChrisRackauckas](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/ChrisRackauckas)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/21 "2018-09-29T23:01:22Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/150): > > Yes, this is exactly the sort of arrogance that was very much on display further up in the thread. Thanks for reminding us. How is it arrogance? How do you suppose people already wrote software in Julia if debuggers are required to write software? If debuggers are required to make literally any complex program work then how did people make the debuggers? In general, this kind of “holding open source hostage” is just really toxic behavior. All of the “I won’t/can’t use Julia until feature XXX” (in this case debuggers) isn’t helpful and just breeds animosity in an open source community. The issue is that the purpose of such a statement (either explicitly or implicitly) is to devalue other’s work enough, hopefully breaking them down enough to make them do free work for you. This happens all of the time in open source. I think turning around and looking at what we have accomplished and asking “how can I help continuing to improve the offering?” is a much more beneficial to the community. We have some great features already to build software, there’s other useful features we can add, but no our livelihood is not going to be destroyed if there’s not a debugger you like available by the end of the month. I clarified my position enough so please don’t misattribute quotes to me, and we can probably discuss whether only testing code with transient mutable states is a good idea elsewhere. We could’ve discussed the details about how these issues with common debugger overuse could reimagine the debugger to work more around state snapshots and resetting local tests to fixed snapshots. I have been giving such feedback while testing the debuggers like ASTinterpreter2 integrations with Juno because of their utility, but we can’t seem to get to a real discussion here for some reason. As it stands, I’m not sure what help this thread is doing to the community so I’m out of this thread to spend more time helping elsewhere. ---

**Author:** ![joa-quim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/joa-quim/32/227_2.png) [@joa-quim](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/joa-quim)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/22 "2018-09-29T23:03:22Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/158): > > You choose your definition the way you like it. I fully disagree. I would happily accept that if it was the opinion of someone who use debuggers. But since you said that you do not use them, don’t think there is a strong weakness in your arguing? ---

**Author:** ![juliohm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/juliohm/32/215266_2.png) [@juliohm](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/juliohm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/23 "2018-09-29T23:04:36Z")

I never said that. Period. ---

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/24 "2018-09-29T23:09:27Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/161): > > How is it arrogance? You’re saying that people like me are subsisting on the programming equivalent of beer, which does not make us look good. We are the unhealthy hoi polloi, wallowing in the mud of ignorance. As for the rest of your post: I have seen very few people saying debuggers are completely indispensable, and they have been mostly drive-by posts. No-one has said, to my recollection, that it’s impossible to write code without them, but some have said that it is hard _for them_ to do it. I haven’t, and no-one else (except drive-bys) has, at least after some discussion, faulted the developers for putting the debugger on the back burner. Debuggers are important, but not _urgent_. High tempers have mostly flared in response to the barely veiled ‘only half-wits need debuggers’ attitudes displayed in several posts. I have seen no ill will towards the choices of the developers, and it seems that the debugger story in Julia is looking very bright. Painting disagreement about the utility of debuggers as toxic behaviour, is over the top, IMO. ---

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/25 "2018-09-29T23:21:28Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/163): > > I never said that. Period. But you seem to have used them in a way that has not exposed you to their best qualities. And you seem less interested in hearing about that, than in sticking to your guns, and your dictionary. ---

**Author:** ![juliohm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/juliohm/32/215266_2.png) [@juliohm](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/juliohm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/26 "2018-09-29T23:31:56Z")

Good try to start another flame. ---

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/27 "2018-09-29T23:32:27Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/166): > > Good try to start another flame. ? ---

**Author:** ![kevbonham](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/kevbonham/32/216165_2.png) [@kevbonham](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/kevbonham)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/28 "2018-09-30T01:42:58Z")

[Well, that escalated quickly](https://goo.gl/images/87ekXj) > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/147): > > So please don’t fake quote me saying “there’s no use for a debugger”: you wrote that. Please look again at what I quoted. To me > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/145): > > Basically, debuggers are nice but it’s not the end of the world if you don’t have one. Sounds pretty close to the way I characterized it. Yeah, it probably should have been “there’s no **need** for a debugger” if I was trying to quote you, but I wasn’t. And I said as much in my original comment - I said I didn’t re-read the thread, and that this was my recollection. I’m not really clear on why you’re upset with me, but I apologise if you think I’m trying to put words in your mouth. Too be clear I also think the following match my characterization: > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/9): > > I’ve been coding fortran, C++, python and Julia (a little) for 20 years. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I used a debugger > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/10): > > In fact, if you have the habit of writing tests for every feature you add to your library, a debugger is almost useless. > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/12): > > Good programming habits with test suites, code coverage, etc. eliminate almost entirely the need for a debugger. > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/44): > > test suite are the best debugger because humans are infallible and get things wrong > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/44): > > The only reason to have complete trust in what you do interactively is if you never make mistakes, but if that’s the case, why would you need a debugger? > [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/46): > > Also having a good unit test coverage makes debugging a bit more _obsolete_ imo. But it should be noted I’m not even arguing against them here. I was only trying to respond to the previous comment wondering where the perception can’t from. Sorry to everyone that I kicked off this"argument" again. ---

**Author:** ![jtravs](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/jtravs/32/2010_2.png) [@jtravs](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/jtravs)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/29 "2018-09-30T07:16:13Z")

I wasn’t going to comment again here as this thread appeared dead (though you’re doing a good job stirring it up again), but since you brought me back into this I’ll explain my original comment that you quoted. This thread started at a time when there were a large number of comments in this forum claiming that Julia was essentially useless and completely unattractive to new users because it didn’t have a debugger. Examples are easy to find in threads active at the time this one started. My comment and I believe many of the others you quote where counter arguments to this idea. I find Julia highly usable without a debugger. Very few people, and certainly not me, argued that one was not needed in general. Merely that it isn’t essential. This fact is self evident from the highly active debugger-less Julia ecosystem. ---

**Author:** ![lobingera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/lobingera/32/211_2.png) [@lobingera](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/lobingera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/30 "2018-09-30T07:57:18Z")

> [@How do you use debuggers?](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/how-do-you-use-debuggers/4580/169): > > This fact is self evident from the highly active debugger-less Julia ecosystem. Activity does not precede success. ---

**Author:** ![nalimilan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/nalimilan/32/147_2.png) [@nalimilan](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/nalimilan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/controversy-on-who-said-what-on-debuggers/15687/31 "2018-09-30T08:52:18Z")

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