# \`Base.rand\` but \`Random.rand!\`?

**URL:** <https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174>\
**Category:** General Usage\
**Created:** [August 28, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174 "2018-08-28T06:57:07Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![carstenbauer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/carstenbauer/32/4981_2.png) [@carstenbauer](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/carstenbauer)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/1 "2018-08-28T06:57:07Z")

</div>

It doesn’t make sense to me that `rand` is in Base but `rand!` is in in the stdlib Random. I get that all the other random number related stuff got moved but this seems inconsistent to me.

What was the reasoning here? I’d open an issue/PR if other people find this inconsistent as well.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 7:09am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/2 "2018-08-28T07:09:58Z")

</div>

Both are in Random. You can check it with `@which rand()` and `@which rand!([1.0])`. But `rand` is apparently loaded into Base. I presume it’s because `rand` so widely used and useful. It’s a balancing act between consistency and convenience.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![carstenbauer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/carstenbauer/32/4981_2.png) [@carstenbauer](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/carstenbauer)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 7:25am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/3 "2018-08-28T07:25:45Z")

</div>

Thanks. Still I think it’s inconsistent to only load `rand` into base and not `rand!`.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rfourquet](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/rfourquet/32/3610_2.png) [@rfourquet](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/rfourquet)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 8:34am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/4 "2018-08-28T08:34:48Z")

</div>

See the discussion at [https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/pull/24874](https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/pull/24874)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![cormullion](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/cormullion/32/49131_2.png) [@cormullion](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/cormullion)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:03am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/5 "2018-08-28T10:03:36Z")

</div>

But is it a useful inconsistency or just an annoying inconsistency (or even a foolish inconsistency)?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![carstenbauer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/carstenbauer/32/4981_2.png) [@carstenbauer](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/carstenbauer)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/6 "2018-08-28T10:13:10Z")

</div>

@cormullion, I’d say it’s an annoying inconsistency.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:14am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/7 "2018-08-28T10:14:49Z")

</div>

BTW, `randn` is also in Base.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![cormullion](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/cormullion/32/49131_2.png) [@cormullion](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/cormullion)\
**Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/8 "2018-08-28T10:31:30Z")

</div>

Personally I think it’s a useful inconsistency! Mac users probably know that weird “drag a disk to the trash to eject it” inconsistency…

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seif\_Shebl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Seif\_Shebl](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Seif_Shebl)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/9 "2018-08-29T17:24:42Z")

</div>

> [@carstenbauer](#):
>
> I’d say it’s an annoying inconsistency.

It is strange that what annoys you is actually the thing that’s done right! Would you like to kill two birds with one stone instead? Ask for the reverse, `Random` returns back to Base. Now you get your “consistency” and all folks get back their convenience as a plus. Random numbers are crucial for scientific computing languages especially dynamic ones like Julia. Despite all the magnificent decisions Julia has made recently, moving `Random` out of Base wasn’t one of them.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tamas\_Papp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/tamas_papp/32/25949_2.png) [@Tamas\_Papp](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Tamas_Papp)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/10 "2018-08-29T17:28:59Z")

</div>

> [@Seif\_Shebl](#):
>
> Random numbers are crucial for scientific computing languages especially dynamic ones like Julia. Despite all the magnificent decisions Julia has made recently, moving `Random` out of Base wasn’t one of them.

This has been discussed a lot, but moving things out of `Base` into the standard libraries does not in any way signal that they are unimportant. Also, while there is a minor inconvenience, there are also benefits: eg independent updates of the standard libraries, or conversely, using a particular version even if Julia is updated.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seif\_Shebl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Seif\_Shebl](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Seif_Shebl)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/11 "2018-08-29T18:28:18Z")

</div>

No, I’m not saying that `Random` module should return back to Base, it originally was out of Base. I mean at least `rand()`, `randn()`, `srand()` (I mean the “new” ehm ehm … `Random.Seed!()`) should remain in Base. For interactive/exploratory/dynamic work, which Julia excels at, these are too essential. Many scientific languages and non-scientific ones do the same thing. Look at MATLAB, R, Mathematica, Crystal, GO, C (`stdlib`), Fortran, etc., they all make some form of `rand` available by default. Other advanced/special purpose generators like `xoroshiro128` and others remain in the `Random` module as was the situation before Julia 1.0.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rdeits](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/rdeits/32/286_2.png) [@rdeits](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/rdeits)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/12 "2018-08-29T18:35:14Z")

</div>

> [@Seif\_Shebl](#):
>
> Look at MATLAB, R, Mathematica, Crystal, GO, C ( `stdlib` ), Fortran, etc., they all make some form of `rand` available by default.

- Go: random number generation requires importing `"math/rand"`, just like Julia
- C: random numbers require you to `#include <stdlib.h>` and seeding the RNG (using the current time) also requires you to `#include <time.h>`
- Crystal: random numbers live within the `Random` module, just like Julia
- R: rng seed lives in `Random.seed`, much like Julia

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seif\_Shebl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Seif\_Shebl](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Seif_Shebl)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/13 "2018-08-29T18:43:01Z")

</div>

First three are non-interactive and not in the same boat with Julia, Crystal has `rand` and R has `runif()` and `rnorm()` by default plus a plethora of statistical distributions:

1. Beta
2. Binomial
3. Cauchy
4. Chi-Squared
5. Exponential
6. F
7. Gamma
8. Geometric
9. Hypergeometric
10. Logistic
11. Log Normal
12. Multinomial
13. Negative Binomial
14. Normal
15. Poisson
16. Student t
17. Uniform
18. Weibull

Julia is supposedly one step forward over all predecessors.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seif\_Shebl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Seif\_Shebl](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Seif_Shebl)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/14 "2018-08-29T18:48:24Z")

</div>

Summary: Please leave `rand` and `randn` as they are and hopefully `srand()` joines them back as it complements their use if some one wants a repeatable measurement.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rdeits](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/rdeits/32/286_2.png) [@rdeits](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/rdeits)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/15 "2018-08-29T18:50:05Z")

</div>

Julia 1.0 is a stable release. There is no danger of anything being removed from Base in the _entire_ 1.x timeline.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/16 "2018-08-29T18:53:51Z")

</div>

> [@Seif\_Shebl](#):
>
> Random.Seed!()

What’s wrong with `seed!` (small `s`)? It’s clearly a better name than `srand`, which was weird. Also, most people don’t use it anyway (I’ve used the Matlab version of it maybe 5 times over 20 years.)

`rand` and `randn` are already where you want them, and `seed!` is so obscure that hardly anyone needs it.

> [@Seif\_Shebl](#):
>
> Julia is supposedly one step forward over all predecessors.

I don’t agree that progress means putting more stuff into the global workspace…

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![carstenbauer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/carstenbauer/32/4981_2.png) [@carstenbauer](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/carstenbauer)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/17 "2018-08-29T18:58:18Z")

</div>

> [@Seif\_Shebl](#):
>
> > [@carstenbauer](#):
> >
> > I’d say it’s an annoying inconsistency.
> 
> It is strange that what annoys you is actually the thing that’s done right! Would you like to kill two birds with one stone instead? Ask for the reverse, `Random` returns back to Base. Now you get your “consistency” and all folks get back their convenience as a plus. Random numbers are crucial for scientific computing languages especially dynamic ones like Julia. Despite all the magnificent decisions Julia has made recently, moving `Random` out of Base wasn’t one of them.

I see I wasn’t clear in my initial post. I would like to see `rand` and `rand!` available per default, everything else per `using Random`.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ExpandingMan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/expandingman/32/866_2.png) [@ExpandingMan](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/ExpandingMan)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/18 "2018-08-29T19:00:49Z")

</div>

I have to say that I was really dismayed that `LinearAlgebra`, `Statistics` and `Random` were moved out of `Base` but as time goes on I increasingly see the wisdom in this.

As much as I agree that the functionality in these packages are absolutely crucial and having to do `using LinearAlgebra` makes me feel dirty, the development of stdlib really, really needs to be decoupled from core julia to whatever extent possible.

Let me give an example. Just today, I found a really scary performance regression in `sparse(transpose(A))` where `A` is sparse. Fortunately, I discovered that this is just a bug in `sparse`, you can fix this easily by doing `SparseMatrixCSC(transpose(A))` instead. So now we’re in a place where we have to wait until Julia 1.0.1 for that bug to be fixed. Suppose the regression were real and there were no easy fix. Then we’d be in a pickle, the hacked solution would not be pretty. Once stdlib is separate from Julia itself, fixes to packages like `SparseArrays` will happne much more rapidly.

So yeah, `using LinearAlgebra, Statistics, Random` sucks, but it’s more important that we can upgrade and fix those packages at a faster rate than Julia itself is upgraded.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seif\_Shebl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Seif\_Shebl](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Seif_Shebl)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/19 "2018-08-29T19:01:04Z")

</div>

> [@DNF](#):
>
> What’s wrong with `seed!` (small `s` )? It’s clearly a better name than `srand` , which was weird.

Sure, seed!() is a very nice name. The problem is you must do `using Random` everywhere you need this.

```julia
julia> Random.seed!()
ERROR: UndefVarError: Random not defined
Stacktrace:
 [1] top-level scope at none:0

julia> using Random

julia> Random.seed!()
MersenneTwister(UInt32[0xcaa86f85, 0xeac61058, 0x93421853, 0xd4df5941], Random.DSFMT.DSFMT_state(Int32[1269422445, 1073532173, 1732890801, 1072777308, -2140488122, 1072829781, 1035566119, 1073555375, -2061168306, 1073494504 … -770156497, 1073546319, 1999375680, 1073621645, 860750873, 614789294, -1729250630, 864726483, 382, 0]), [0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 … 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0], UInt128[0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000 … 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000, 0x00000000000000000000000000000000], 1002, 0)

```

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DNF](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/dnf/32/10191_2.png) [@DNF](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/DNF)\
**Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174/20 "2018-08-29T19:05:15Z")

</div>

You can write:

```julia
using Random: seed!

```

or

```julia
import Random.seed!

```

[Next page](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/base-rand-but-random-rand/14174.md?page=2)