# A recent "pre-quantum, pre-spacetime theory" an 8D octonic theory more fundamental than QM or QFT/the standard model (and explaining it) predicting 6 particles, e.g. dark photon

**URL:** <https://discourse.julialang.org/t/a-recent-pre-quantum-pre-spacetime-theory-an-8d-octonic-theory-more-fundamental-than-qm-or-qft-the-standard-model-and-explaining-it-predicting-6-particles-e-g-dark-photon/86797>\
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**Created:** [September 5, 2022, 12:07pm UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/a-recent-pre-quantum-pre-spacetime-theory-an-8d-octonic-theory-more-fundamental-than-qm-or-qft-the-standard-model-and-explaining-it-predicting-6-particles-e-g-dark-photon/86797 "2022-09-05T12:07:11Z")\
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**Author:** ![Palli](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/julialang/user_avatar/discourse.julialang.org/palli/32/3380_2.png) [@Palli](https://discourse.julialang.org/u/Palli)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:47am UTC](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/a-recent-pre-quantum-pre-spacetime-theory-an-8d-octonic-theory-more-fundamental-than-qm-or-qft-the-standard-model-and-explaining-it-predicting-6-particles-e-g-dark-photon/86797/3 "2022-09-06T08:47:52Z")

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FYI: If you want to do something with his theory, then up to octonions supported here (but not sedenions):

> **[GitHub - JuliaGeometry/Quaternions.jl: A Julia implementation of quaternions](https://github.com/JuliaGeometry/Quaternions.jl)**
>
> A Julia implementation of quaternions

I recall sedenions also mentioned in some of his papers, here from the first link, at least sedenionic:

> ### Quantum worlds vs. Classical worlds
> 
> Our universe, as it is today, is dominated by classical bodies, which produce, and live in, a classical spacetime. This is the substrate shown in Fig. [7](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjp/s13360-022-02868-4#Fig7). [..]  
> The octonionic theory achieves a formulation of the upper quantum level, relating quantum systems to a quantum spacetime, i.e. the octonionic spacetime.
> 
> In the octonionic theory, the transition from the classical substrate to the upper quantum level is very elegant and is reflected in the simplicity of the action principle of the theory.  
> [..]  
> the action principle of the theory is [an atom of spacetime-matter (STM)]
> 
> [Formula (66)]
> 
> where the degrees of freedom are on sedenionic space. This action is nothing but a refined form of the action of a relativistic particle in curved classical spacetime  
> [..]  
> and obey the Fano plane multiplication rules.  
> [..]  
> Equation ([68](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjp/s13360-022-02868-4#Equ68)) defines an octonion, whose eight direction vectors define the underlying physical space in which the ‘atom of spacetime-matter’ [the _Q_ matrices = elementary particles] lives. The form of the matrix is shown in Eqn. ([69](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjp/s13360-022-02868-4#Equ69)). The elementary particles are defined by different directions of octonions.
> 
> Our fundamental action is a relativistic matrix-particle in higher dimensions. The universe is made of enormously many such STM atoms which interact through ‘collisions’ and entanglement. From their interactions emerges the low-energy universe we see. There perhaps cannot be a simpler description of unification than this action principle.  
> [..]  
> Once again, we see the great importance of Connes time τ. The universe is a higher-dimensional spacetime manifold filled with matter, all evolving in an absolute Connes time.

There he referenced from other people:

# [[1904.03186] Three fermion generations with two unbroken gauge symmetries from the complex sedenions](https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.03186)

> can be described using the algebra of complexified sedenions C⊗S

I had never seen sedenions mentioned in any (physics) paper, at the time I wrote this post (after seeing them used for the first time in neural networks):

> [@Quaternion-, and up to, sedenion-valued neural networks: Parallelizing Hamilton product on GPUs/CUDA](https://discourse.julialang.org/t/quaternion-and-up-to-sedenion-valued-neural-networks-parallelizing-hamilton-product-on-gpus-cuda/48442):
>
> [Edit: See my next comment on August 2020 Sedenion-networks, and there and here a bit on Octonion-networks. I changed the title yet again replacing Octonion with Sedenion as to not make it too long.] The specific four dimensional algebra of quaternion numbers, including the Hamilton product allows quaternion-valued models to consistently outperform equivalent real-valued neural networks. Last time I checked complex-valued ANNs weren’t mainstream (people I asked didn’t even know of), and I …

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